The episode, named “ronny/lily” after that belligerent duo (played by Daniel Bernhardt and Jessie Giacomazzi), took the series into a territory more gruesome and surreal than ever — which is saying something.
“We might have jumped the shark,” Hader said in a telephone interview last week. “If we did, well, who cares? It was rad.”
During the conversation, Hader, who directed and co-wrote the episode, talked about how he first got the idea and the logistics of choreographing such surprisingly thoughtful violence. Here are edited excerpts.
Q: How did this episode come about?
A: While we were shooting Season 1 last year, Wade Allen, our stunt coordinator, told me: “Hey, if you ever need a little girl to do stunts, I know this girl Jessie. Her parents are both stunt people, and she’s amazing. I just worked with her on a commercial, and she can do fights, and she’s a gymnast.” I was like, “That’s cool.” It stuck in my head, and I have a little notebook that I write things down in. I wrote out that idea — Barry fighting a little girl, and her running up a tree on top of a house. I just had these little images.
Q: Did you decide to direct the episode because of your vision for it?
A: Yeah, I saw it very clearly, and I wrote it super specifically. It was very strange because usually, when we write episodes, it’s [the show’s other creator, Alec Berg], me and the writers in a room. But this is one where I came in and pitched it to all of them, and they were like, “That sounds crazy!” It was a weird thing I was cooking up privately that I told them about, and they were into it.
Q: How did you find Daniel Bernhardt?
A: It was hard because in the script, Ronny was a short, fat, bald guy. He was this schlub, and it was this weird reveal that he was a taekwondo master. That proved incredibly hard to find. Most guys who are skilled like this are really good-looking like Daniel. He came in, and all the women in our casting office were like, “Can we please cast him?”
Q: What was it like working with Jessie Giacomazzi?
A: She’s brilliant — so sweet and a really amazing actress. Her character thinks her father has been killed, and I didn’t want to lose sight of that. I said: “This is a very primal thing that you defend yourself and seek some sort of vengeance. Think of yourself as an animal.” We kept going between squirrel and tiger. She really understood the character.
Q: Barry wears a mask through much of the episode. Did that make it easier for you to use a stunt double for the fight scenes?
A: Yeah, that was all by design. Barry, logically, doesn’t want to be seen, so he’d be wearing a mask, and that means we can go all out in the fight scenes. Because I was directing the episode, that helped to be behind the monitor and making sure the shots were right.
Q: Why did you decide to go with such long takes? Doesn’t that put pressure on performers?
A: Yes, but my instinct, for some reason, was no music, and these long, panning shots to create a sense of tension. I asked our director of photography, Paula Huidobro, “How do we do this so it doesn’t look cool?” The camera is almost judging what’s happening. It’s coming from the point of view of: “Guys, what are you doing? Come on. Stop.”
Q: Were any of the stunts done with special effects?
A: The only effect is the tree. She’s climbing up a green-screened rock-climbing wall, and she’s harnessed. But that is her jumping on the roof and scurrying up there. It gave me a heart attack every time we did that. After every take, I was like: “We’re good, right? The little girl doesn’t have to climb up on top of the roof anymore?” And Paula would be like: “Oh, the dolly was a little bit late. Can we go again, just to get it right?” And Jessie was always like, “Can we do it again?” She was having a blast, but I just felt so responsible.
Q: Why did you decide to go with such a surreal tone for this episode?
A: It just felt right. A lot of shows do that. My editor, Jeff Buchanan, said, “This kind of reminds me of the ‘Pine Barrens’ episode of ‘The Sopranos.’” “Atlanta” had that great “Teddy Perkins” episode last year where you’re just like, “What is this?”
Q: I thought of “Pine Barrens,” too. Is Lily going to be like the Russian in the woods, and we’ll never see her again?
A: Maybe. I have no idea. It’s kind of a weird thing to let a loose thread happen. When I pitched it, everyone in the writers’ room said, “What happens to the little girl?” And I went: “I don’t know. She’s just out there.” They got a little creeped out.
Q: How do you feel now that you’ve pulled it off?
A: It was so much fun. I’d always wanted to be a director since I was a kid. And the pilot for “Barry” was the first thing I ever directed. It was cool for me with this episode to at least try to take it up a notch. You’re always just trying to make it better.
Q: How do you top this?
A: I don’t think of it in those terms. There will be some people who will dig this, and there will be some people who are like: “What’s going on with the acting class? I don’t care about any of this.” You can’t please everybody.
This article originally appeared in The New York Times.